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advice on used P&P

Views: 4788

About 12 years ago, this forum was hugely helpful in guiding... - Jun 18, 2020 by jmelson  

Look for Philips Emerald (3 Phase supply) or it's predecesso... - Jun 19, 2020 by Vinit  

OK, I am really happy with the robustness of my CSM84. I won... - Jun 19, 2020 by jmelson  

The Eclipse really looks like it would do everything I'm doi... - Jun 19, 2020 by jmelson  

There's often a US company on eBay called firstplacemachiner... - Jun 21, 2020 by Spoiltforchoice  

Thanks, I dug up the Sapphire listing and sent him a message... - Jun 22, 2020 by jmelson  

I too would advise against converting a 3-phase machine to s... - Jun 22, 2020 by Vinit  

&gt; Don't get yourself a Sapphire!! <BR> <BR&g... - Jun 22, 2020 by jmelson  

Sapphire has a Line Array camera on either side. So all comp... - Jun 22, 2020 by Vinit  

we have 2 machines here Vinit! Emerald 2x ... - Jun 22, 2020 by Jasper A. van Meerten  

Emerald needs 3 phase power. What would be your price for t... - Jun 23, 2020 by jmelson  

The power outside your building will certainly be 3 phase. T... - Jun 23, 2020 by Stephen  

This will be in the basement of my home, in the US. I can a... - Jun 23, 2020 by jmelson  

Very impressive, this is why I love our industry! You can g... - Jun 23, 2020 by DWL  

why not get an older essemtec or neoden? I believe both run ... - Jun 23, 2020 by Reckless  

I don't know much about Essemtec, I have been looking at Neo... - Jun 23, 2020 by jmelson  

&gt; why not get an older essemtec or neoden? I <BR&g... - Jun 26, 2020 by jmelson  

&gt; &amp;gt; why not get an older essemtec or neode... - Jun 26, 2020 by Spoiltforchoice  

&amp;gt; Finding one used could be &lt;BR&gt; &a... - Jun 27, 2020 by jmelson  

rx8pilot has one of those - long thread here https://www.eev... - Jun 27, 2020 by Spoiltforchoice  

I can't find much info on the older Essemtec machines. Firs... - Jun 27, 2020 by jmelson  

I would specifically look at the FLX2011 models with a V for... - Jun 29, 2020 by Spoiltforchoice  

Spoilt, OK, a good point in your message, what good is a ma... - Jun 29, 2020 by jmelson  

WOW, thanks for the documents, this will REALLY help selecti... - Jun 29, 2020 by jmelson  

Yeah my issue with the CLM945 type single slot feeders used ... - Jun 29, 2020 by Spoiltforchoice  

One last question, can the FLX2011 pick up a negative fiduci... - Jun 29, 2020 by jmelson  

I certainly can on the Paraquda and I suspect the basic algo... - Jun 29, 2020 by Spoiltforchoice  

Thanks! Jon ... - Jun 29, 2020 by jmelson  

&gt; I think the main <BR> &gt; issue is the b... - Jul 01, 2020 by jmelson  


jmelson

#85013

advice on used P&P | 18 June, 2020

About 12 years ago, this forum was hugely helpful in guiding me to get a Philips CSM84, with no vision. (That might have been a mistake.)

Now, I'm moving to smaller parts, especially TSSOP and QFP with 0.5 mm pitch, and the CSM just isn't accurate enough. Also, I have an MSOP part that is square, and the centering jaws just won't center both axes at the same time.

So, I'm looking for another bargain. Here are my requirements :

It needs to run on single-phase power, some kind of flying vision, Either 2 or 3 nozzles would be just FINE, as long as it has an automatic nozzle changer, It doesn't have to be crazy fast, my CSM is fine at 3000+ PPH. I really want a conveyor, my CSM has it. And, I need to get about 50 feeders with it, mostly 8mm, 6 12mm, 4 16 mm, and a couple 24 mm would do it.

I saw a Samsung CP45FV and just about fell in love, but couldn't afford to win that bid.

I guess I could go up to $10K for this setup, but I'd like to do some research before buying anything.

Thanks for any info you can provide.

Jon

reply »


Vinit

#85017

advice on used P&amp;P | 19 June, 2020

Look for Philips Emerald (3 Phase supply) or it's predecessor Eclipse (single phase supply). It has 2 heads, Laser + Vision alignment (no mechanical alignment).

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jmelson

#85022

advice on used P&amp;amp;P | 19 June, 2020

OK, I am really happy with the robustness of my CSM84. I wonder how hard it would be to hack up one of these 3-phase machines to run off single-phase power? Mostly, it just feeds a big DC supply for the X-Y servos. 2 heads with ANE should be just FINE, how accurate is the flying vision for QFN parts. That was what was so attractive on the Samsung CP45FV and newer was the 2D camera looking at the bottom of the parts. It could spot the BGA balls, too. On the other hand, the laser/line scan cameras would do almost anything, and used the fixed camera for JUST the high-density or leadless parts would be fine.

Thanks for the reply!

Jon

reply »


jmelson

#85023

advice on used P&amp;amp;P | 19 June, 2020

The Eclipse really looks like it would do everything I'm doing now very well. I'm not too clear on how well the laser/1D vision would work for QFN parts, but maybe it would be fine.

The downside is I think these machines are now going to be hard to find, they are over 20 years old. I'd rather stay with a machine built for single phase power rather than try to hack one or rig up a VFD and filter to make synthetic 3-phase for it.

Thanks,

Jon

reply »


Spoiltforchoice

#85028

advice on used P&amp;amp;amp;P | 21 June, 2020

There's often a US company on eBay called firstplacemachinery , username starbillias. List all sorts of old SMT and currently that incudes a sapphire and this statement "We also have a Philips Eclipse and Orion if interested." No idea what they are like to deal with...

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jmelson

#85029

advice on used P&amp;amp;amp;amp;P | 22 June, 2020

Thanks, I dug up the Sapphire listing and sent him a message.

Thanks a lot,

Jon

reply »


Vinit

#85030

advice on used P&amp;amp;amp;P | 22 June, 2020

I too would advise against converting a 3-phase machine to single phase. Eclipse is a single phase machine and not too difficult to find! It's a rugged machine and people still use them. Orion too is single phase but faster and less accurate than an Eclipse. Not for 0.5mm pitch or lower. But a nice machine in itself. Eclipse was renamed to Emerald (with very slight modifications) and Orion became Topaz (with a faster and better camera) and both became 3 phase in their new avatar.

Don't get yourself a Sapphire!!

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jmelson

#85031

advice on used P&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;P | 22 June, 2020

> Don't get yourself a Sapphire!!

Right, that has a whole bunch of nozzles, and I can't imagine how they can have cameras on all of them. Couldn't handle larger parts, the nozzles are too close together.

Jon

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Vinit

#85033

advice on used P&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;P | 22 June, 2020

Sapphire has a Line Array camera on either side. So all components on all nozzles are recognised in a single pass. But Sapphires are tough to maintain. And yes, it can handle max. 25x25mm components with the Line Array.

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Jasper A. van Meerten

#85035

advice on used P&amp;amp;P | 22 June, 2020

we have 2 machines here Vinit! Emerald 2x

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jmelson

#85042

advice on used P&amp;amp;amp;P | 23 June, 2020

Emerald needs 3 phase power. What would be your price for the Emerald with 50 feeders? Where are these machines? We are in the St. louis, MO area.

Thanks,

Jon

reply »


Stephen

#85047

advice on used P&amp;amp;amp;P | 23 June, 2020

The power outside your building will certainly be 3 phase. The power to your building will almost certainly be 3 phase. Why not simply get a transformer and have 3 phase power available for the machine? It will probably be a much better option than limiting yourself to a single phase machine.

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jmelson

#85048

advice on used P&amp;amp;amp;amp;P | 23 June, 2020

This will be in the basement of my home, in the US. I can assure you we do not have 3 phase "outside our building". We do have 7200 V 3 phase a block away, but that would require adding a block of 7200 V feeder and a transformer bank, the power company will absolutely not do it.

I can generate synthetic 3 phase 240 V power with a VFD and a post-filter, but that is a lot of work.

And, if you don't believe you can run a Philips CSM84 in a home basement : http://pico-systems.com/CSM84.html Jon

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DWL

#85049

advice on used P&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;P | 23 June, 2020

Very impressive, this is why I love our industry!

You can go from people dropping millions of dollars on a line to a guy working out of his basement. All producing, essentially, the same end product.

reply »


Reckless

#85050

advice on used P&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;P | 23 June, 2020

why not get an older essemtec or neoden? I believe both run on 110V.

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jmelson

#85051

advice on used P&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;P | 23 June, 2020

I don't know much about Essemtec, I have been looking at Neoden a little. At least the Neoden is not in any way in the same class as machines like Assembleon or Samsung.

I did download the manual for a Samsung CP45FV NEO, and the programming side of the machine is out of this world. I was VERY impressed. These machines just hum along at 13K PPH. I've seen some Neoden videos, and they seem to have one fixed camera and take a second to image the part on each nozzle. I don't actually NEED this much speed, but I don't want to go slower than my current machine.

Anyway, my experience with my Philips CSM84 has shown me how good even a 25 year old machine can be (it was about 13 years old when I got it.)

So, at least for a while, I'm going to keep looking for a good used machine.

Oh, yes, some of these Chinese machines are VERY compact, that IS a plus!

Jon

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jmelson

#85092

advice on used P&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;P | 26 June, 2020

> why not get an older essemtec or neoden? I
> believe both run on 110V.

Thanks so much for the Essemtec hint! Their Fox 1 really looks like it suits my needs! 18 mm component height, 50 um accuracy, small size, what's not to like?

I'm going to try to get more info on these -- anybody know if there are many in the US? I'd love to download the user manual to get an idea of what the user interface for setup looks like.

Thanks,

Jon

reply »


Spoiltforchoice

#85102

advice on used P&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;P | 26 June, 2020

> &gt; why not get an older essemtec or neoden?
> I <BR> &gt; believe both run on 110V.
> <BR> <BR> Thanks so much for the
> Essemtec hint! Their Fox 1 really looks like it
> suits my needs! 18 mm component height, 50 um
> accuracy, small size, what's not to like?

I'm
> going to try to get more info on these -- anybody
> know if there are many in the US? I'd love to
> download the user manual to get an idea of what
> the user interface for setup looks
> like.

Thanks,

Jon

Finding one used could be the first challenge, the Fox is a 2016 machine the second issue will be the price. You 10k budget would cover the feeders each bank of 10 refurbished is worth ~3k. Take the belt driven precursors to the Fox - the larger Paraquda and they are on the market dated around 2012 or so, I'm told 8 years is a popular time to upgrade SMT equipment. The Paraquda also had a faster bigger brother in the Cobra that was much less popular. We run a Paraquda, its more than capable of what you want from it and you get that software. I'd say your chances of finding one with a conveyor are perhaps slightly less than 50%. Not having a conveyor can certainly cost you productivity but does give you a flexible place area and you can makeup some of that handling time with larger panels.

The FLX2011 or 2012 in dual configuration would also do what you wanted, and has to have a conveyor being two machines inline. Some of the other Essemtec machines you could buy manufactured up around 2010-2012 were compromised in some way (to be cheaper) and I don't think they would match.

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jmelson

#85104

advice on used PnP | 27 June, 2020

&gt; Finding one used could be <BR> &gt; the first challenge, the Fox is a 2016 machine <BR> &gt; the second issue will be the price.

Yes, after some research I realized the Fox is a relatively new model, and is going to be out of my price range. DARN!

Well, still looking. PPM does a retrofit of the Quad 4C that might get into the range I could afford.

Thanks,

Jon

reply »


Spoiltforchoice

#85108

advice on used PnP | 27 June, 2020

rx8pilot has one of those - long thread here https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/finally-have-a-pick-and-place-on-the-way-quad-ivc/

Clearly the platform itself is very well made although some of the weird debugging codes and errors posted on this forum look like fun. There always seems to one or 2 for sale somewhere (both original and PPM'd) e.g http://www.bluewireproto.com/quad.html Essemtecs from before Fox would still be a good fit because of their size. Manncorp branded Autotronik machines could also be interesting but someone on eevblog was having difficulty getting them to give them support for machines they no longer sold. The models offered from Autotronik themselves don't seem to have changed in quite some time. Meanwhile Essemtec has introduced and retired multiple models as it tunes its offering.

In the UK we have a native option in http://www.intelligentdrives.com/ when all those startups sprung up around the raspberry pi / arduino these were a popular choice although the speed meant people soon moved on. No idea what happened to the machines or if they are sold internationally.

reply »


jmelson

#85110

advice on used PnP | 27 June, 2020

I can't find much info on the older Essemtec machines. First, I'd want to see the "spec sheet", then I'd want to find out what the programming environment is like. (I was really impressed with the Samsung machines in that regard.)

I have not seen much of the Autotronik machines in the US.

There are some Samsung CP40 machines that might do what I need, I'm trying to get some package deal prices on those now. Again, I know what the CP45FV programming is like, but have not gotten a look at the CP40 setup, which might be a lot less sophisticated.

The Philips/Assembleon Eclipse might be good, but their programming interface is all text-screen based. That might actually be just FINE, but again, without looking at the manual, I just don't know.

I've kept my Philips CSM84 running for almost 13 years with no support from anybody. I came across a number of error codes that were either not in the manual AT ALL, or had useless descriptions.

Shortly after I got it, in the middle of a job, it stopped with (I think) a "memory full" error. I had to take a guess that I had let the MIS data (pick errors, nozzle errors) accumulate, the manual just said "memory is full" which told me nothing. How did it get full in the middle of a job? Well, that was it, the MIS info.

Another time I got "feedback error" which was not in the manual at all. Once I guessed that this meant what we call 'following error" on CNC machines, I knew what things to look at. Turned out the rotation motor commutator had filled up with copper dust, and was shorting out the motor. Relatively easy fix once I knew what to do.

So, I think with the manual, I should be able to set up and run one of these machines, after a little start-up trial and error. I don't need speed, but I do need accuracy for the finer-pitch components.

Jon

reply »


Spoiltforchoice

#85111

advice on used PnP | 29 June, 2020

I would specifically look at the FLX2011 models with a V for vision (they otherwise come with Cyberoptics laser alignment as standard, although that would also work if you are not inspecting BGA balls). They come with software that I think is called something odd like BOX, very win32 in design and layout (because it is) mouse/trackball & keyboard driven. Or the Paraquda/Cobra, that comes with ePlace like on the Fox as this is the machine the software started on, specification sheets and "system descriptions" come up if you google both, as do plenty of video's on Youtube. I would expect a Paraquda with feeders to be offered @ 20-30K based on what I have seen in the UK, depending on how badly they want to sell it ;). The FLX should be a bit less becuase they aren't quite as cool ;). Paraquda does 18mm out of the box (except the feeders), FLX does it with options.

For that matter http://ge.tt/5vhFaD53 all zipped up. So these are machines you could buy new from the factory in 2011,2012 maybe even 2013 at some point they made a G2 Paraquda and maybe changed some things on the FLX naming, I wasn't in the market so wasn't paying much attention. There was also another machine based on the same physical platform as the FLX - the Pantera XV. I think it took single slot feeders a variant of which is used to offer deep pocket support with adaptors on the FLX/Paraquda when using CLM feeders. I have some of those and I hate them, fiddly and unreliable. (CLM945-X in the system description files). I haven't go as far as checking out how Fox with HyQ supports taller parts, if its this way, yuck yuck yuck.

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jmelson

#85112

advice on used PnP | 29 June, 2020

Spoilt,

OK, a good point in your message, what good is a machine with 15 mm component height capability if there are no feeders that support that tall a component! I hadn't thought about that aspect! (My Philips CSM84 is limited to 6.5 mm, and I really would like to up that limit a bit. In general, feeder reliability is a big issue. My CSM is OK, but I have a lot of trouble with the cover tapes not pulling off.

I will chew on the rest of this info, THANKS!

Jon

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jmelson

#85113

advice on used PnP | 29 June, 2020

WOW, thanks for the documents, this will REALLY help selection. It looks like I want the FLX2011CV, that makes it a lot easier to set up and not have to reach into the machine to load and unload boards.

The machine footprint is really compact, 10 mm component height, 25 x 25 mm minimum board size. All that looks really good!

Do you have any idea what the FLX2011CV might be going for in the US now? Also, I need about 50 assorted feeders with it, how much would that cost, and how hard would it be to get more, later?

Thanks again,

Jon

reply »


Spoiltforchoice

#85114

advice on used PnP | 29 June, 2020

Yeah my issue with the CLM945 type single slot feeders used for parts over 6mm is they index forwards using a tiny servo attached to some gears that pull on the cover tape. A system that begs to fail, the tape can stretch, the gears can start grabbing the cover tape they should be spitting out and it can snap, on top of that they are also fiddly to load. However you can also put those tall parts into fake trays and pick/place them that way.It may also be possible to adapt the CLM95X-YY feeder banks to take deeper tapeif one was feeling adventurous, I think the main issue is the bend radius you can apply to tape with deeper pockets. Its a common restriction, when you get into it quite a few machines need special solution for taller parts. Europlacer can't do deep pockets on its trolleys you have to use gun feeders so instead of a £250 element you clip into your £15K 33 lane trolley its a £1700 single lane gun feeder, at which point you have to really know you want it ;).

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jmelson

#85115

advice on used PnP | 29 June, 2020

One last question, can the FLX2011 pick up a negative fiducial, ie. a plated through hole? Some of my boards do not have traditional fiducials, so I pick up the location of a couple mointing holes. (It didn't address this in the documents.)

Thanks,

Jon

reply »


Spoiltforchoice

#85116

advice on used PnP | 29 June, 2020

I certainly can on the Paraquda and I suspect the basic algorithms are the same. Slimmer annular rings such as you might get on a plated via hole don't always image quite as well but if for some reason it doesn't pick it up you should be able to intervene and do it manually if you are nearby... Bigger rings like M3 or the even the square pin1 pad for an PTH IC/LED/Connector also all work quite well. (picking the square one makes it easier for you to remember which random feature you chose)

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jmelson

#85117

advice on used PnP | 29 June, 2020

Thanks!

Jon

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jmelson

#85133

advice on used PnP | 1 July, 2020

> I think the main
> issue is the bend radius you can apply to tape
> with deeper pockets.

Right, on my Philips CSM84, on the larger tapes, I don't thread the tape through the return slot, I let it play out the front of the feeder. There is a guide plate you can take off to do that. The CSM feeders are so low that the return slot is very sharply curved. That's fine for 8mm and some 12 mm tape parts, but the big chip and capacitor tapes bind up in the slot.

Quad and Samsung feeders seem to be twice as tall, allowing for a wider and more gently curved return slot which looks like it would flow more easily. But, the way the feeder goes into the rail, there is no way to let the empty tape flow out the front. Obviously, the Philips/Yamaha was designed to allow this.

Jon

reply »

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