i have to buy one NXT from Fuji What do you think???

Alan

#31661

i have to buy one NXT from Fuji What do you think??? | 10 December, 2004

We purchased the NXT about 4 months ago. Even though it is a new platform it has been running smooth with no hardware or major software issues. We are in a pilot factory so we don't get as much use out of it as some production facilities. Keep an eye out for your board length when you are looking for the right fit. The M3 can only accomodate a length of a little under 10 inches before it starts splitting feeders. This is a major reason we went with the M6 modules. If you would like to discuss further let me know.

technitelec

#31666

i have to buy one NXT from Fuji What do you think??? | 10 December, 2004

thank you allan,

at least it will help me in my decision, in fact we are wondering if it is a god idea to buy a brand new model without any advise from other users....

thank you again serge

Tech

#31716

i have to buy one NXT from Fuji What do you think??? | 14 December, 2004

Alan When you say the feeders are "split" what do you mean?

#31717

i have to buy one NXT from Fuji What do you think??? | 15 December, 2004

Hi Serge,

If you are really looking at a new machine, why not try Assembleon AX-3 configured for 45K cph (rated speed, 30K IPC9850 speed). This machine can be future upgraded upto 90K cph (rated speed, 60Kcph IPC 9850 speed). You get placement force control, 01005 placement capability, and many more unmatchable features with high feeder handling capability as well. Rather Fuji NXT is an imitation of the Assembleon parallel placement concept - widely proven in the field with the popular FCM machine and now being made much more flexible in the AX.

If you need more information the same, you can visit http://www.assembleon.com

Regards Vinit

Base

#31719

i have to buy one NXT from Fuji What do you think??? | 15 December, 2004

Hi Serge,

First of all: "i HAVE to buy"...? Sounds like someone is twisting your arm to buy a piece of iron you're not really enthousiastic about...

But on a serious note: I've been comparing some machinery myself (also with Pana and Siemens) and I have to say that Vinit has a few good points. My choice in the end was the AX as well, although I chose the AX-5 machine. Speed is important of course, but is no longer the leading feature. Flexibility is more and more important and that's where the Dutch folks nailed it: they don't have to sacrifice output for more flexibility. It does boards and components of all different sizes without sacrificing output, which I could not say for the NXT: - long boards cost output as soon as they exceed the width of a module (so the M3 is out) - wide boards cost output because you may loose the rear lane - large components cost output because you can not use all nozzles on the mini-turret anymore

So I'd say: have a look at the AX. I'm not saying the NXT is crap, (Fuji did not not get their reputation because they build junk), but when your requirements change it is good to widen your horizon beyond the beaten track.

#31721

i have to buy one NXT from Fuji What do you think??? | 15 December, 2004

You're right about Fuji not making junk, their reputation for reliability has been earned over the last couple of decades, with CP2's & 3's & IP1 & 2's still out there bringing home the bacon....

....whereas the first FCM's are being used to roast turkeys in this Christmas!

#31722

i have to buy one NXT from Fuji What do you think??? | 15 December, 2004

Does Serge need bacons or turkeys??

None of them?? Then let him think about which machine suits his requirements! Throughput, flexibility, large board handling, output derating across board size variation and component size variation! Future proof - 01005 capability - how many have even seen this component?

And now Assembleon is adding the vision capability to each module in the AX thereby giving the AX itself the capability to mount upto 45x45 mm component!! I donot mean to hurt anybody's feelings, but the bare fact that FUJI also has adapted the parallel placement concept speaks volumes about the proven FCM and now the AX! And I learnt some years back that even Panasonic tried the same but was unsuccessful - just what I heard!

So in a nutshell, I would suggest Serge to look into the perfect match between his product and the equipment - cos it makes sense! One machine might be good for one product and not so much for another! Look at the size of the AX and that of the NXT! What if one of the modules of the NXT has some problem! You've got to take out the entire Module including the conveyor system and realign them again to make the machine up and running, while in the AX or for that matter the FCM, just disable it and let your production condition or even take it out for troubleshooting.

There are numerous benefits with the AX now. The FCM was suitable only for higher speeds since for low speeds the feeder handling reduced proportionally. But no longer for the AX. You've got to see it to believe it. Just go to Assembleon's website and look at the specs and some amazing videos like the 0402 tower and the 0201 matrix re-loaded!! You'll be more than convinced!

Regards Vinit

#31723

i have to buy one NXT from Fuji What do you think??? | 15 December, 2004

Hi Vinit,

Glad to see that you are so passionate and knowledgeble about your machines, and I'm sure Assembleon has come on a long way since I last used their machines.

You'll have to forgive me as I'm just an engineer whose only concerns are accuracy, repeatability & reliability.

Cheers,

Rob.

Fastek

#31735

i have to buy one NXT from Fuji What do you think??? | 15 December, 2004

You're correct Rob. If you go back any amount of time in this business like it sounds you have (and I know I have), it wasn't that long ago that companies like Philips and Seimens were way behind everyone else, (Fuji and Pana) when it came to building reliable and strong platforms. Speed was the key back then and no one had any use for slow flex. mounters. The FCM-1 was not a good machine any way you slice it but the FCM-2 had its moments in the sun for a while. I really feel if the market didn't change when it did from high volume to a slower and more flexible demand....companies like Philips and Seimens would be finished by now. In other words the market finally shifted to where they had some advantages and the increase in sales allowed them to make better and better equipment hence they have a good following now and their reputation is strong. It was dicey for both of them in the 90's though.

#31737

i have to buy one NXT from Fuji What do you think??? | 15 December, 2004

Cheers Fastek,

You never know, if I've not retired by the time my Fuji's finally wear out maybe I'll take a look at the Assemblion machines. 25 years & counting.....

Rob.

#31752

i have to buy one NXT from Fuji What do you think??? | 16 December, 2004

I respect your statements about the FCM-I but only partially. Yes it was meant for ONLY HIGH VOLUMES, but in those cases, it has proved to be a masterpeice. Talk to those who've used the machines for 70000 hours or so. I have customers here that're using the FCMIs and are buying more of them from the used market just because of the reliability and accuracy of the machine. I agree it's not so flexible in terms of changeovers but for OEMs, it's a perfect machine.

FCM II had the ONLY additional advantage of the intelligent feeders and the feeder trolleys which had their effect on the lower changeover times. But then came the Carrier kit principle which was applicable to FCM I as well as the FCM II, wherein the carrier kit could be used for ANY PCB and could be offline preprared - unlike the fixed carrier sets in the older days of the FCM I which used to be bought/fabricated for each different PCB. And finally the FCM multiflex arrived, it took care of the calibration headaches too with the QUICK calibration which took nothing more than a mere 10 minutes for a changeover.

And with the AX, all these are history. You changeover the products just like you do in ANY modular machine with no carriers needed etc. Plus there are numerous advantages of the AX compared to the traditional chipshooters, I've already mentioned some of them in my previous posts. Further information is available on Asssembleon's website.

I also agree that it is difficult to adapt to change - but would be much wiser to accept things on merit and not just by previous experience or mindsets - ADAPTABILITY is the key - and that goes for the AX as well.

Cheers.

Vinit

Base

#31753

i have to buy one NXT from Fuji What do you think??? | 16 December, 2004

Hi Rob,

I can understand why you'r so passionate about your beloved Fuji's and judging by what I'm reading you have every reason to be. But also know this, (Fastek already pointed it out, but I'd like to emphasize it): a company's reputation, be it just or not, only says so much about their latest achievements. Especially these days when there's a small revolution going on in our industry and even turret-giants like 'Fuji the Great' are turning their heads towards other concepts. These newer concepts require more compact machines and this is one of the reasons I think Assembl�on is the better choice here. Fuji, Siemens and now also Universal are trying to shrink the size and increase the output by miniaturizing the mechanics in their eqiupment. I don't know about you but when I start seeing complete motors that are less than 10mm wide I get doubts about reliability and maintentance. Regardless of the fact that their manufacturer can build bomb-proof 10-ton molochs... So from CNC-ing tanks out of solid blocks of cast iron they are now turning towards minute mechanics, densely packed together. I'm not saying they can't pull it off (the Japanese have done this before) but I'm just not confident. With this in mind, take a look at the AX: no minute engineering (all parts are visible to the human eye) and slow movements. I bet my salary that this stuff will last longer, with less problems and is easier to maintain (PM is <1hr per week!). But anyway: you wrote you're looking out for accuracy, repeatability and reliability. These are all well-defined metrics on which the AX beats the NXT with ease. But when I read your replies I get the idea that over the years your addiction to Fuji is has turned from a rational choice to an emotional one. Loyalty is good emotion, but also a very restrictive one...

Fastek

#31758

i have to buy one NXT from Fuji What do you think??? | 16 December, 2004

Vinit-

I hate to burst your bubble regarding the FCM-1's but they will go down in history as probably the biggest platform failure in this business...based on re-sale value. For a million dollar machine to reach a level of re-sale of only $10K-$20K five years after inception says all you need to know about its following and acceptance. I have been selling SMT equipment for many years and I have never seen anything like that in this business. They were hardly a masterpiece. I have no doubts the AX is a wonderful platform given Philips has had 10 years to evolve the FCM...but again there are plenty of folks out there that witnessed the early generation FCM's and would have some doubts. But even Fuji has made their share of failed platforms....the CP-5 comes to mind.

As far as your last statement accepting facts based on merit or word of mouth has gotten a lot of companies in trouble in this business over the years. I'll take previous experience or first hand knowledge over that any day of the week.

#31769

i have to buy one NXT from Fuji What do you think??? | 17 December, 2004

Hi Fastek (what's your name?)

The problem here is about the misconception about the FCM-I. As you rightly mentioned, the FCMs have gone through evolution in the last 10 years and the FCM 'I' too went through a lot of changes! And the FCM Is delivered after 1996 were hardly any different from the FCM IIs! The difference being ONLY feeders!

Because of the issues in the early FCM Is, some people do have the feeling that it goes for all FCM Is.

And why do we forget that with the FCM came the principle of Parallel Placement which is now being considered by most other manufacturers including FUJI? It takes time for every concept to become perfect and that's true for each machine. Why do we forget what happened to the QP-132E? And how much time it took for the NXT to come after the QP-132E?

By the way, the FCM Is are selling in the market today for over $150k too depending on the usage and condition. The CP4 is today available for less than $10K too! So we cannot and should not generalise the pricing in the used market. It varies on a lot of factors. By the way, if you have an FCM I for $10K-20K, as you mentioned, please do let me know.

Regards Vinit

#31770

i have to buy one NXT from Fuji What do you think??? | 17 December, 2004

Hi Vinit,

Not entirely sure of the exact dates, but I think you may be being a little creative in your comparisions. The CP4 was definitely around by 1991, whereas I'm sure the base 1 FCM appeared around 1996. A fairer comparison would be the CP6 (1994 onwards), and that was cheaper & a far better machine, with much better residuals.

Anyway, lets end it here as everyone thinks they have the most beautiful wife.

Merry Christmas everyone.

Rob.

technitelec

#31772

i have to buy one NXT from Fuji What do you think??? | 17 December, 2004

Dear Rob,

Dear all,

i believe that i have enough to take decision and it will go to NXT 100 percent sure.

Wishing to all of you all the best for the end of the year

Thank you again serge

Base

#31779

i have to buy one NXT from Fuji What do you think??? | 17 December, 2004

Sorry Rob,

FCM-1: first machines around 1990 FCM-2: first machines around 1996 FCM Multiflex: I think it was 2001? AX: about 1.5 years now

But indeed, let's finish it: the entire discussion drifted a bit away from the initial question. I just get a bit icky when people are 'defaulting' to a certain vendor.

#31787

i have to buy one NXT from Fuji What do you think??? | 18 December, 2004

Hi Rob,

I did'nt want to reply, but Base did, and rightly so about the dates. But that's not we're discussing at this moment.

We started discussing about what's best for Serge. Now that he has decided for the NXT, good luck to him! But serge, in case you still feel you're open to a discussion, please write to me at vinit.verma@prosemtechnology.com

Why waste everyone else's time.

I may have some good information which you'll find not-too-easy-to-ignore.

Happy decision making

Merry christmas to all.

Regards Vinit

Fastek

#31788

i have to buy one NXT from Fuji What do you think??? | 18 December, 2004

Vinit-

The name's Rick by the way. Probably best to stay in the new equipment business as your knowledge of used prices is a bit out of whack. First of all you could buy (2) CP4-1's new for what and FCM went for new. Second CP-4's are selling for around $50K today...not $10K and third my $10K-$20K value for an FCM-1 is based on the how the used market values them....not what Assembleon sells them for rebuilt, re-engineered and with a warranty. I have a soft spot in my heart for the FCM-2 though I must admit. I have never made a larger profit on a single machine deal as I did a few years ago on one of those. I'll tell you about it off-line if you'd like Vinit. You'd love that one.

#31789

i have to buy one NXT from Fuji What do you think??? | 18 December, 2004

Hi Rick,

First, in the last 6 months my customers have bought 5 FCM 1s and 3 FCM 2s, from the second hand market and NOT from Assembleon for approx. $130K for the FCM 1 and approx. @200K for the FCM 2. And one customer had bought the CP4 for $10K and then he migrated to the FCM! I agree the prices vary hugely on the vintage and condition but I am yet to see an FCM1 available for less than $75K for even a 1995 vintage!

Anyway, let's leave it at there at least on this forum. You can write to me at vinit.verma@prosemtechnology.com if you wish to.

Regards Vinit