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Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume

Views: 7967

Dear All, I'm looking for the complete SMT equiment line (s... - Jul 14, 2005 by

It looks like the 330 Convection & the GF120 ovens would rea... - Jul 15, 2005 by Rob  

Try these guys: www.essemtec.com They have a full rang... - Jul 15, 2005 by PeteC  

Hi Rob, Thank you very much for your comments. I appreciate... - Jul 15, 2005 by

Hi Pete, Thanks for your suggestion. I will take a look at ... - Jul 15, 2005 by

Reliable and accurate don't come with inexpensive solutions.... - Jul 20, 2005 by

> Dear All, I'm looking for the complete SMT > equim... - Jul 20, 2005 by Danny Hui  

Danny, why the "Chinese made reflow oven"? Russ ... - Jul 20, 2005 by RDR  

Because they haven't made copies of Fuji and MPM equipment y... - Jul 20, 2005 by Fastek  

With "yet" being the key word. ... - Jul 20, 2005 by

I have worked low volume high mix production for years. Have... - Jul 20, 2005 by via

Hi, I would agree with that, and the second hand prices f... - Jul 20, 2005 by Grant  

We have two APS Gold ovens and are acheiving an accpetable L... - Jul 20, 2005 by

Never thought I'd hear myself say this (& I will punish myse... - Jul 21, 2005 by Rob  

No need to punish yourself Rob.....you are 100% correct on a... - Jul 21, 2005 by Fastek  

Agreed! ... - Jul 22, 2005 by AEI  

Thanks Gents, I feel all special! ... - Jul 25, 2005 by Rob  

Dear All, Thanks very much for your help. Your suggestion... - Jul 25, 2005 by

Rob is right on with the comments above. As I believe it ... - Aug 04, 2005 by

Neel's right! Assembleon Topaz is a very versatile machine f... - Aug 10, 2005 by Vinit  

not to be anoying....but a topaz can be configured with a 54... - Aug 21, 2005 by

MYDATA does the same thing but at faster speeds. ... - Aug 22, 2005 by Avalancher  

How many placements per square foot hour? Topaz is about ... - Aug 22, 2005 by

I was told by Assembleon that a Topaz can not be fitted with... - Aug 22, 2005 by

That's funny Ken. The Topaz does many things well....but goi... - Aug 23, 2005 by Fastek  

Rick, you have not heard everything, I believe Fuji is ratin... - Aug 23, 2005 by

But one of the unique selling points of a Fuji has always be... - Aug 23, 2005 by Rob  

That's an interesting fact Ken. Now I think i've seen every ... - Aug 23, 2005 by Avalancher  

I know this post is getting a bit old, but the Juki KE-2060 ... - Aug 23, 2005 by FD  

Thought I was the only one who used this calculation for spe... - Aug 23, 2005 by RDR  

You can put a 15, 32, 45, 54 mm lens on a Topaz. However, t... - Aug 23, 2005 by

I like the way you think, Russ! ... - Aug 23, 2005 by

If floor space is not too big a concern, don't forget about ... - Aug 25, 2005 by

Is this the same IPC-9850 standard that requires users to pu... - Aug 25, 2005 by Fastek  

fastek, Is that a k-mart blue light special price.....hahah... - Aug 26, 2005 by

Most pick-&-place machine companies will give you their data... - Aug 26, 2005 by PeteC  

... and even if you don't trust the numbers in the brochures... - Aug 29, 2005 by

August

#35542

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 14 July, 2005

Dear All, I'm looking for the complete SMT equiment line (solder printer, P&P, Reflow) uses for the small volume production line. I happen to know that Manncorp and APSGold can provide the complete ST line, but I haven't hear and use these machine before. Could someone please share with me some information about quality, service, relibility, etc...? How do they compare with Fuji, Amistar, MyData, ContactSystems in term of quality, service, and relibility? Your inputs are very helpful to me and I'm appreciate that. Thanks in advance. Here are what I have searched for so far: 1. Manncorp: MC4500 stencil printer, MC383N-L20V P&P, and 330 Convection reflow Oven. Should I consider to use MC390V2-V P&P and 545 lead-free reflow? http://www.manncorp.com/fine_pitch_flex_line/index.php?view=overview

2. APSGold: SPR-45 printer, LE60 auto pick & place, GF-120HC lead-free reflow oven. http://www.apsgold.com/SMT_Line4.html

I pologize if my questions do not clear or make no sense to you. But I'm really need your inputs to help me to make the decision.

Thanks in advance. Best regards, August

reply »


Rob

#35550

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 15 July, 2005

It looks like the 330 Convection & the GF120 ovens would really stuggle to do lead free, with 3 zones (the 330 has 3 top, 1 bottom).

Can't comment on the 545 oven, you'll have to get them to run profiles with a selection of your boards & check on the results, as I've seen a lot of problems with 5 zone ovens hitting lead free profiles.

Remember, when a manufacturer claims their oven is Lead Free, it means that it will hit the temperatures OK, it doesn't mean it will give you a good profile accross a selection of boards & components.

reply »


PeteC

#35556

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 15 July, 2005

Try these guys:

www.essemtec.com

They have a full range of low-end SMT equipment, and they are the mfr.

reply »

August

#35573

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 15 July, 2005

Hi Rob, Thank you very much for your comments. I appreciate that. Have you heard anyone use these pick and place machines? Their price is reasonable with our budget, but I don't know if it is worth to start. If anyone by any chance has used these machines, please share with me some experience. Thanks.

Best regards, August

reply »

August

#35574

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 15 July, 2005

Hi Pete, Thanks for your suggestion. I will take a look at it. Does it reliable and accurate?

Thanks, August

reply »

Carmichael

#35654

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 20 July, 2005

Reliable and accurate don't come with inexpensive solutions. I suggest that you buy used equipment with a better and proven brand name.

reply »


Danny Hui

#35655

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 20 July, 2005

> Dear All, I'm looking for the complete SMT > equiment line (solder printer, P&P, Reflow) uses > for the small volume production line. I happen to > know that Manncorp and APSGold can provide the > complete ST line, but I haven't hear and use > these machine before. Could someone please share > with me some information about quality, service, > relibility, etc...? How do they compare with > Fuji, Amistar, MyData, ContactSystems in term of > quality, service, and relibility? Your inputs > are very helpful to me and I'm appreciate > that. Thanks in advance. Here are what I have > searched for so far: 1. Manncorp: MC4500 stencil > printer, MC383N-L20V P&P, and 330 Convection > reflow Oven. Should I consider to use MC390V2-V > P&P and 545 lead-free reflow? _a class=roll > href="http://www.manncorp.com/fine_pitch_flex_line > /index.php?view=overview" > target="_blank"_http://www.manncorp.com/fine_pitch > _flex_line/index.php?view=overview_/a_ 2. > APSGold: SPR-45 printer, LE60 auto pick & place, > GF-120HC lead-free reflow oven. _a class=roll > href="http://www.apsgold.com/SMT_Line4.html" > target="_blank"_http://www.apsgold.com/SMT_Line4.h > tml_/a_ I pologize if my questions do not > clear or make no sense to you. But I'm really > need your inputs to help me to make the > decision. > > Thanks in advance. Best > regards, August

Hi August,

I suggest you buy used machines with market acceptable. If you are in lead free process, it is better to get a LF reflow. Less zone will be able to meet spec. With low volume, I suggest you get the following with the market price: 1. MPM AP25 2. CP4 3. IP2 4. China make LF reflow

Regards Danny Hui

reply »


RDR

#35658

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 20 July, 2005

Danny, why the "Chinese made reflow oven"?

Russ

reply »


Fastek

#35664

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 20 July, 2005

Because they haven't made copies of Fuji and MPM equipment yet....unlike reflow ovens and waves.

reply »

Mark

#35665

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 20 July, 2005

With "yet" being the key word.

reply »

cecil

#35668

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 20 July, 2005

I have worked low volume high mix production for years. Have worked with numerous p/p machines, fuji, samsung, panasonic, quad, manncorp and mydata. There are a couple on that list that made my hair really gray. The one I find most tech and operator frendly would be mydata. If you would like more specifics contact me lsmith@innovative-ss.com.

This message was posted via the Electronics Forum @

reply »


Grant

#35669

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 20 July, 2005

Hi,

I would agree with that, and the second hand prices for a TP-9 is very low, and they use the same feeders as the MY series, so if volume ever increases there is an upgrade path.

TP should be able to handle any component, and because they can pick from the Y wagon, as well as tape's stuck down by double sided tape, you can get away with almost no feeders.

We originally started with the one 8 mm feeder bin, and everything else was on the Y wagon. Later we purchased more feeders, and then upgraded.

There are heaps of MYDATA feeders on the second hand market.

Regards,

Grant

reply »

Pete Roy

#35670

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 20 July, 2005

We have two APS Gold ovens and are acheiving an accpetable Lead Free profile. We still have to further qualify board widths/sizes to determine what are limits are and still be within the profile we need. For the most part you need more zones/longer tunnel to run faster throughput. We have zevatech pick and place, service and support is available but expensive. Parts are expensive. There are lots of users, I have started zevatech@yahoogroups.ca as a discussion forum - about 10 users now, I know there are hundreds of users out there. PR

reply »


Rob

#35680

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 21 July, 2005

Never thought I'd hear myself say this (& I will punish myself later).

Whatever you do, don't buy an AP25, CP4 or IP2 for starting out in low volume.

1) You will need a LOT of space 2) You will need a very good constant air supply else the AP25 will shut down every 5 minutes 3) HUGE learning curve 4) CP4 is limited to 0603 5) Both Fuji Machines are ancient now (although still being used today in a lot of factories for volume work) 6) Expensive parts, servicing & time consuming programming unless you have lots of cash to spend on the requisite software.

If you are just starting out, and it's always going to be low volume, not too high tech - go for one of the new deals you were looking for - or similar. More complex second user machines will cost more to support & have a steeper learning curve - and if you don't need the speed or high accuracy then you get no payback.

Other machines that are really easy & cheap - Versatronics RV4 (Second user only), TWS Quadra, Mydata TP9.

Printer wise, if it is very low volume and not too complex - a hand type is fine - as long as the blade is supported by rails to give even pressure. Hope that helps,

Rob.

reply »


Fastek

#35694

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 21 July, 2005

No need to punish yourself Rob.....you are 100% correct on all points.

reply »


AEI

#35717

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 22 July, 2005

Agreed!

reply »


Rob

#35722

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 25 July, 2005

Thanks Gents, I feel all special!

reply »

August

#35727

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 25 July, 2005

Dear All,

Thanks very much for your help. Your suggestion and comments are very helpful to me. I am very appreciated that. Again, thank you very much for your help.

Thanks, August

reply »

Neel

#35925

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 4 August, 2005

Rob is right on with the comments above.

As I believe it is pointed out, check out Mydata and also Assembleon. In fact, in helping others like you I have found Assembleon to strike the better deal even over Mydata. You can teach parts and boards without offline software if you need to. Yet I have seen them give their CAD2CAD tool away to help customers. Try to find a used Topaz, or check out this: http://www.assembleon.com/InformationCenter/Assembleon/FTaboverview.asp?lNodeId=2768

reply »


Vinit

#36027

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 10 August, 2005

Neel's right! Assembleon Topaz is a very versatile machine for placing components from 0402 upto 32mm square. Moreover Assembleon also sells pre-owned but fully refurbed equipment and you could find a Topaz there too! Since this is not a sales forum, I suggest you contact your local Assembleon agent/office or write to me offline and I may be able to help you out with this.

Regards Vinit

reply »

Ken

#36202

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 21 August, 2005

not to be anoying....but a topaz can be configured with a 54mm camera an when using the 20 micron head 1 spline. It will place accuratly to +/-0.02mm

Imagine 1 machine that works from 0402 to 54mm square! Now that's flexible.

reply »


Avalancher

#36207

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 22 August, 2005

MYDATA does the same thing but at faster speeds.

reply »

Ken

#36237

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 22 August, 2005

How many placements per square foot hour?

Topaz is about 25 sq. foot at 8,000PPH or 320 placements per square foot of factory space per hour.

reply »

Cmiller

#36239

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 22 August, 2005

I was told by Assembleon that a Topaz can not be fitted with a 54mm camera. Only the 45mm. The Emerald? or whatever the 4 spindle machine is called, is the only one with a 54MM camera. Is this not true? I am talking used Topaz, 1997 to 2000 models. Please let me know as 54mm cameras are plentifull. 45's are not.

reply »


Fastek

#36241

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 23 August, 2005

That's funny Ken. The Topaz does many things well....but going fast isn't one of them....no matter what spin you put on it. Placements per square foot....now I've heard everything.

reply »

cmiller

#36242

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 23 August, 2005

Rick, you have not heard everything, I believe Fuji is rating thier machines by cubic footage. I guess thats to keep the competition from making 9 foot tall placement machines. Gee, didnt someone try that with ovens a while back?

I would still love to get an answer about the 54mm camera.

reply »


Rob

#36244

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 23 August, 2005

But one of the unique selling points of a Fuji has always been all that space you get to hide things in when the auditors come round.....

reply »


Avalancher

#36246

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 23 August, 2005

That's an interesting fact Ken. Now I think i've seen every figure out there. Let's see, CPH, DPMO, CPK, and now, hmm, what would this be called, PPPSF (parts placed per square foot).

Does anyone have a formula on this to figure out my PPPSF?

reply »


FD

#36265

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 23 August, 2005

I know this post is getting a bit old, but the Juki KE-2060 can do 0201 up to 74mm square (or up to 150mm long connectors) on their standard machine. You only need to purchase the 0201 nozzle and feeder. The machine is factory set to run 0201.

And in our eval of the topaz versus 2060, the 2060 was running our boards faster.

reply »


RDR

#36266

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 23 August, 2005

Thought I was the only one who used this calculation for spec'ing equip.

reply »

Ken

#36269

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 23 August, 2005

You can put a 15, 32, 45, 54 mm lens on a Topaz. However, the 54mm has no published specs. Standard config would use the 45fov single cam. Remember the larger the fov the lower the resolution.

Oh and for you guys out there who like the parts per square foot. I have been in SMT since the late 80's and have worked in many factories with many, many different types of SMT mchinery. Cost per square foot is extremely important in a factory. Productivity for each square foot is an important factor. That's where parts per our per square foot comes from.

The whole concept came about when I inherited two Fuji Lines at a CM. I could not believe how flippin big these monsters were.

Here's some more historically inspired chuckles: Parts per hour per ton. (ma and pa Fuji would be proud of me) Parts per hour per kilowatt hour (hey, runnng equipment isn't free, just like floor space)

reply »

Ken

#36270

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 23 August, 2005

I like the way you think, Russ!

reply »

Dave

#36331

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 25 August, 2005

If floor space is not too big a concern, don't forget about IPC9850 to really measure the true speed ratings of each PP machine.

reply »


Fastek

#36333

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 25 August, 2005

Is this the same IPC-9850 standard that requires users to purchase a $26,000 glass component/board kit? That's nuts.

reply »

bobpan

#36347

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 26 August, 2005

fastek, Is that a k-mart blue light special price.....hahahaha....bet lots of people have purchase that.....ya right....

chow

reply »


PeteC

#36349

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 26 August, 2005

Most pick-&-place machine companies will give you their data from the IPC-9850 results in terms of placements per hour. I see it on many machine specification sheets these days.

reply »

Base

#36365

Need help on selecting the SMT equipment for small volume | 29 August, 2005

... and even if you don't trust the numbers in the brochures and specs: ask them to do the test in your presence or get a third party to come in and verify the claimed IPC9850 ratings, e.g. Cetaq. 26k is indeed a bit steep, and that's without the loss of production time to do the test.

reply »

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